FvF Source Code and conditions of the GPL

QuadRaptor · Post by **QuadRaptor** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:33 pm

Haha this guy makes me think of Juggernaut:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3atx7Jm-jvI

sole · Post by **sole** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:37 pm

Just wondering why you won't release the source, ignoring the fact that this guy threatened you. If I came here and asked for the source would you not release it, and why?

Joao Lucas · Post by **Joao Lucas** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:47 pm

I don't know if that helps, but "Juggernaut" told me his e-mail (day5ive@gmail.com). Then, I was looking at Inside3D forums and found him: http://forums.inside3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=571

He uses his REAL nickname, dayfive.

sole · Post by **sole** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:28 pm

sole wrote:Just wondering why you won't release the source, ignoring the fact that this guy threatened you. If I came here and asked for the source would you not release it, and why?

And note: I could give two shits if you release the code or not, I'm just asking for the sake of conversation

Baker · Post by **Baker** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:13 pm

Just to let anyone know, QuakeC isn't inherently GPL.

QuakeC sources were released WAY BACK before the Quake Engine Source was made GPL.

Examine the source to progs.dat 1.06 and you will find there is no GPL agreement. ThreeWave CTF doesn't have a GPL agreement with it. CRMOD is not open source and Artifact Quake (which later became Rune Quake) was not GPL until Artifact-RJS.

I've never read anything where FVF was GPL, most mods aren't GPL.

Gunter · Post by **Gunter** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:21 pm

My main reason for not giving out the FvF source code is my respect for the mod....
FvF was not originally my mod, by the way; it was one of the first great Quake mods back in 'the day.' Even before I was involved in doing any coding with it, I was always trying to get people to play it. I just really love the mod... and I just can't stand to see it get borked up by anyone and their brother who might get their hands on the code, heh.

I've seen people do horrible, horrible things to FvF after getting the source.... It made me cringe.
And then new players might come in and play their bastardized version and get the impression that it's what FvF is supposed to be like....

I've seen FvF combined with Runequake, which totally messed up the class balance with too much power and randomness. And I've seen FvFRegistered really modified beyond recognition.... It was just painful to think about!
And I know the same thing would happen again if the source code was all over the place.... and I just wouldn't want to be responsible for that.

Now, I know I've made a lot of changes to it myself, but I try to keep the original feel of FvF in there, with the class balance and play style.

It's mostly the monsters that have been radically changed, but the original FvF Registered monsters were some pretty weird things to begin with.... Adding in new enemies with new tricks keeps things interesting.

I'm just talking about FvF source code in general. That does still apply to my own version of FvF, but there are more reasons as well.

For one, I'm never finished with it, and I make changes to it.... I correct bugs or add in new features. There's often test code in there too, not to mention some server admin code which I wouldn't want to get out.....
So even if I did want to release the code, I'd have to put some work into cleaning it up a lot....

And I don't want to in any case, heh.
FreeForm (the original FvF modders) never released their source code back when FvF Quake was popular. It's like a quality-control measure.

And it's not as if there are lots of server that really really want to run FvF these days......

dolemite · Post by **dolemite** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:00 pm

I just wanted to mention that I think it is great that you are so passionate about the mod, Gunter, and I understand the reasons for not making the source public.

I would suggest having a line of communication for suggestions (since nobody else can modify it), making absotively fricking SURE you have several backups both on- and off-site, and also a "life insurance policy" or basically a plan to make sure the mod lives on if you are gone.

Maybe you already have all these things and your bases are covered. If so, word.

Gunter · Post by **Gunter** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:14 am

Thanks for reminding me.... I do need to backup the code with the changes I've made recently.

I have it backed up on CDRW and now on a separate hard drive too, though I suppose if my house burns down, it'll be toast, heh....

But the server runs at a different location, and it could just keep on running indefinitely even if I don't make any more updates (I often go months without doing any updates, then I start making updates again, like recently).

People make suggestions to me on the server when we're playing, and also here in the forum. I added in the dance music because Juggernaut and Trans suggested it in a game one day (if you haven't seen the intermission dancing, you must check it out, heh). And I'm adding in the head kicking that Joao suggested here on the forum. And I added in a mode where you fight nothing but brainsuckers based on a chat with Canadian Sniper. It was an alteration to the new mode I had already created where it randomizes all the monsters, or converts them all into one type of monster....
And that mode was also asked for by Juggernaut, though I based it on some of Tran's suggestions.
I made modifications because Juggernaut asked for them, and then he threatens to call the software police on me! Some thanks!

So you can see I do take player suggestions and implement them.... Though most of the time I just get stupid suggestions which I promptly blow off

No, there will not be any new classes in FvF!!!

[server pimping]
By the way, people, FvF can play Deathmatch too, for anyone who is not into killing of crazy, berserk, much-more-powerful, monsters on crack.... It's just that most players don't vote for Deathmatch because they like killing crazy, berserk, much-more-powerful, monsters on crack.

But if you really want a challenge, go into Quest mode and vote for Brain Invasion..... Then the Brainsuckers have already taken over bodies and are packing all kinds of firepower, just waiting to blow you up 5 ways to Sunday

[/server pimping]

Canadian*Sniper · Post by **Canadian*Sniper** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:08 am

All of my suggestions rock ;P

Here's another one. Instead of converting all the monsters into brainies, convert them all into Chthons! Chthons that toss more Chthons!!! OH THE HUMANITY!!!!

Gunter · Post by **Gunter** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:33 am

These are replies to some things Baker posted over at quakeone.

Baker wrote: In this case, the one individual sought to assert a right he happened to not have, but didn't know it. It's a mistake, not someone being "bad" intentionally.

He was doing more than just that.... He was also threatening to report some unrelated "infringements" (the song samples in the dance loops) if he didn't get his way:

Juggernaut wrote: ...This also isn't even to mention how many copyright infringements are occuring within the dance loops alone.

The choice is simple: offer up the sources. If this does not happen within a reasonable amount of time, these various infringements will be made public, leading to a whole mess of potential problems.

He wasn't asking nicely; he was threatening. Basically, "If I don't get what I want, I'll not only report to the gnu," (which could have been an honest mistake, I'll grant you) "but I'll also report that you are offering these song loops for download," (that's just bullying, even though it holds no water, because the short, low-quality song samples aren't infringing on anyone).

Baker wrote: The one who started that thread didn't really understand what he read on Wikipedia. It sucks when that happens.

Heh, it was more than this as well... I pointed out a quote to him from Wikipedia that should have cleared things up to him. It said, clearly:

The programmers of Quake modifications could then publish their progs.dat bytecode without revealing their source code. Most Quake mods were published this way.

We all know what Wikipedia is; it's a good starting place to find information about things you want to know.... The information there about QuakeC was quite correct too, but that wasn't good enough for Juggernaut... He went in and EDITED the entry and added incorrect information to say what he wanted to believe.... He added to wikipedia:

However, since Quake has been released under the GPL license, publishers of Quake modifications that contain a binary compiled progs.dat are required under the terms and conditions of the GPL to release the sources of their QuakeC modifications as well as provide the relevant GPL license text under penalty of law.

You really can't just excuse his actions as being an honest mistake... He wasn't interested in the truth of the matter. He just wanted what he wanted, and wouldn't listen to anyone else or take 'no' for an answer, and was threatening to report unrelated things in order to get what he wanted.

I don't just go flaming anyone who asks for source code....
But he deserved what he got.

Although Joao goes a bit too far, heh....

Baker wrote: ... is GPL because it incorporates GPL code that FrikaC and MauveBib made (Tetris and Paqman).

Is this correct? None of the files I downloaded with MauveBib or FrikaC's mini mods claim they are GPL (and obviously the GPL text isn't included either).
MauveBib's stuff just says they can be placed into any other mod....

[server pimping]
hub.quakeone.com is a great place to hang out and chat, just like a free Quake chat room! And you can connect to all the other popular servers directly from there! Plus there are plenty of things to do for entertainment while you wait for other players....
[/server pimping]

Baker · Post by **Baker** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:57 pm

You really can't just excuse his actions as being an honest mistake... He wasn't interested in the truth of the matter. He just wanted what he wanted, and wouldn't listen to anyone else or take 'no' for an answer, and was threatening to report unrelated things in order to get what he wanted.

Don't know him, heh. I don't know the history. I guess I sort of take the laid back approach to things.

Although Joao goes a bit too far, heh....

Baker wrote: ... is GPL because it incorporates GPL code that FrikaC and MauveBib made (Tetris and Paqman).
Is this correct? None of the files I downloaded with MauveBib or FrikaC's mini mods claim they are GPL (and obviously the GPL text isn't included either).
MauveBib's stuff just says they can be placed into any other mod....

Someone said something at some time, probably at Inside3D forums (which happen to be down). I could have remembered wrong and had never looked in the zips myself.

It really doesn't matter any way, even with GPL code you can make modifications for personal use with no requirement to share, which isn't some things that ever occurs when 1 server exclusively runs something anyway.

Canadian*Sniper · Post by **Canadian*Sniper** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:17 pm

wikipedia was never a valid source in the first place. I always see errors in there.